Indian Graves Restrictions

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cedric
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Indian Graves Restrictions

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Spinalguy
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Post by Spinalguy »

[rant on]
So after the May Long where the youtube videos and various eye witness accounts put the blame squarely on the NON OHV community, they shut out any form of 4x4 travel in Indian Graves. Knee jerk reaction to say the least. No hunting, fishing, etc access unless you walk in or quad.

Do you think this will solve the problem? i don't as it did NOTHING to address the problem; kids destroying Mother Nature with outright disregard for rules. Partying and damaging.
So, next year...the ban will hit quads! Then Bikes?

Life and recreation in Alberta does not look so good.

Am i bitter? YES!!!!! i have over 60,000 dollars invested in a 2003 legal on road use jeep. i do not do mud nor do most of the responsible users. Arrrrgggghhhhh!!!!
[/rant off]
Last edited by Spinalguy on Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tom, you are getting shafted!

I must say, I do think that the trucks do the majority of the damage. It is just a weight and power thing. In the hands on one idiot, alot of destruction can happen. Nevertheless, I don't think all trucks should be banned, since most truck users are responsible. It would be nice to see some more inforcement. Since most of the idiots seem to need to get pissed befor engaging in their destructive behaviour, why not just target the drunks to start with. Last time I checked, public drunkenness was illegal. Furthermore, underage drinking is also illegal.

Maybe I am simple, but this is the number one thing I would remove from the picture.

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Post by MotorEd »

I agree....shutting down the area to trucks hardly solves the problem. I do see a trend though...can you see it? Seems the answer the government is giving to the problem is to shut things down. Not cool :thumbsdown:

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Post by WR_Dave »

Again , I hate to say it, but we should think about an off road OHV user fee, the govt' could use the funds to hire more enforcement officers and treat it like a fishing license. If you catch a fish illegally you can be fined heavily, lose your gear and your vehicle(s) and face jail time. It seems the govt' is using the leverage of the idiot partiers and subsequent damge with Joe publics perception to close all areas of this once great place to live. When will the efforts of guys like Darryl , Diamond Dave, Dylan and several club members from all clubs make the kind of news that the long weekenders seem to make easily. sludge Sells !!!! --- .02 -- WR Dave.
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Post by TrialsPaul »

Another article in the Herald today.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/new ... b2867fecad

Hopefully someone in the Dirt Bike community is bending Morton's ear. It looks like he is going to get something done in his new position and hopefully the dirt bikes do no lose out.
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Post by DIAMOND DAVE »

WR_Dave wrote:Again , I hate to say it, but we should think about an off road OHV user fee, the govt' could use the funds to hire more enforcement officers and treat it like a fishing license. If you catch a fish illegally you can be fined heavily, lose your gear and your vehicle(s) and face jail time. It seems the govt' is using the leverage of the idiot partiers and subsequent damge with Joe publics perception to close all areas of this once great place to live. When will the efforts of guys like Darryl , Diamond Dave, Dylan and several club members from all clubs make the kind of news that the long weekenders seem to make easily. darn Sells !!!! --- .02 -- WR Dave.
WR Dave, I full agree with you. But there seems to be a snag here. We ask for user fees, but nowhere do we offer solutions. How do you fine and convict someone for littering? I throw put my pop cans under my chair when I'm enjoy them around the fire. I pick them up and place them in the garbage at the end of the night or the next morning. Is that littering? The OHV doing donuts in the grazing lease is he the first or is he following the "presumed” trail? Why write a ticket unless the courts are will to convict?
Here are a couple of questions for all of us.
We are willing to pay user fees. Right?
We want enforcement, better known as control. Right?

Here are the problems. It’s hard to change how the courts look at fines like littering and in order to have “user fees” a new licensing program would have to be put in place. Along with such a program they would need to manage funds, hire staff and the list goes on. Also there is no guarantee that any funds will be directed towards any of the areas or enforcement.

Here’s an idea…. 2 part plan
(Part 1)
Expand the already existing campgrounds in the Ghost Waiparous, Mclean Creek and Indian Graves. Build new sites in all areas to accommodate the over whelming growth of Southern Alberta. Build the sites in areas that are of concern so they can be constructed to be environmentally friendly and sustainable. Community Development (Parks) already manages the existing campgrounds and funnel money back into the areas. All we are doing is expanding what is already in place. The campground operators look after and “enforce” what happens in their campgrounds. With expansions to their campgrounds, this would create the opportunity for more summer jobs. Plus we would be able to handout educational information regarding the area when they register.

Now here’s the enforcement end and control….

Ban random camping in a Forest Land-Use Zone that is Recognized for Motorized Use one week prior to and one after any long weekend. Force the “Responsible Users” to register and pay for camping. This folks is your “User Fee” Along with the ban, a law is written so failure to comply with the rules will result in a criminal trespassing offence. This gives SRD/RCMP the power to enforce without the “Grey area” that Lawyers/courts use to throw these files/charges out. For people that wish to run a function or event during the random camping ban period, you would be required to obtain a TFA for SRD in order to do so.

Campgrounds have rules. Random camping does not. Long weekend camping or any camping in the Forest is not a free for all. It’s about getting out, enjoying yourself and NOT wrecking it for everyone else.

(Part 2)
Re-open and expand an already taxed trail system. Take pressure off of already heavily used areas and spread people out. Add a trail rating system to all areas. Use a portion of the funds generated by the camping to help build these systems and hire more people to enforce the rules. Make it sustainable. As stated by some, highways need maintenance so do trail systems. Use stewardship groups to look after the areas and help with funding from Community Development.

We won’t get trails back unless we can come up with a way to control the stupidity that happens. This idea gets rid of the over night partier that only wish to rip up the first .5 km of grazing lease right off the main road.

What are your thoughts?

Dave

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I fired off

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I fired off a letter to Mr. Morton after the may long, stating my views on who was responsible for the majority of damage on the long weekend (kids with no respect for what we have) , how I was part of a group of responsible users of the forestry and that we should not be punished for the actions of a few . I also propose a user fee system maybe a permit for camping (per person or family) my thoughts were an after grad partier would be unlikely to obtain a yearly camping permit. here is the form letter I got back

Dear Richard:

Thank you for your May 23, 2007 e-mail regarding recent events on Alberta�s public lands over the May long weekend. I appreciate the opportunity to provide the following information.

Alberta is faced with an increasingly busy landscape. Our ability to sustain the recreational opportunities in our province depends on Albertans working together to improve our stewardship land ethic. On the May long weekend, I accepted an invitation from the Municipal District of Willow Creek to tour the local municipality, along with my colleague, Mr. David Coutts, MLA, Livingstone-MacLeod. We visited the Indian Graves/Willow Creek area and the McLean Creek Off-Highway Vehicle Forest Land Use Zone and witnessed the damage caused by the irresponsible use of off-highway vehicles and random camping.

Sustainable Resource Development has been responding to recreational pressures on public land through a comprehensive, collaborative approach consisting of education, planning, regulation, partnerships, monitoring and enforcement. The department�s �Respect the Land� environmental stewardship education and awareness program has succeeded in encouraging many user groups and individuals to use public land responsibly and be accountable for their actions. Through co-operation and partnership with other agencies and user groups, Sustainable Resource Development continues to strengthen the collective presence on the landscape and influence responsible use. This includes continuing to employ seasonal guardians to promote a stewardship ethic, patrol public land and respond to non-compliance issues.

Community-level efforts continue to be the most valuable means of producing change. Sustainable Resource Development values the assistance of volunteers and user groups that promote responsible use, participate in clean-up efforts and work together to improve trails and maintain random camping areas. Your efforts have contributed immensely to creating sustainable recreational opportunities for Albertans, now and into the future. To enquire about further stewardship opportunities on public land, please contact Mr. Kevin Wirtanen, Recreation Stewardship and Partnership Co-ordinator, Lands Division of Sustainable Resource Development in Edmonton, at (780) 422-4843 (toll free by first dialing 310-0000).

Thank you for sharing your views on this important matter.



Ted Morton
Minister
Last edited by onthemain on Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by cladoo »

I like your ideas DD! I agree that we need way more campsites that can be controlled and I don't mind paying a user fee (camping fee) when I want to go camping and riding. I also like the ban on random camping but only if there are more legal sites available, I don't want to have to bring my camper out on a Tues or Wed just to get a site for the weekend! We have to find a way to eliminate the drunken partier and if they are in a campground then rules come into play and they can be charged and evicted, right now it is almost impossible to do that.
Claude

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Post by Spinalguy »

Dave, i like it too.

The Indian Graves closure was PERFECT if they just banned random camping. That would have been a great start. To add a complete exclusion of one large user group is going too far. In light of the fact that the only organization in IG on the Monday after May Long and subsequent weekend cleaning up stuff was a 4x4 club, it burns my butt.
Segregation is unfair to any group. If the bikes were condemned from one area and other users were not, that would burn a lot of us on this site. There are as many avid, responsible generations of wheelin users that just got kicked in the teeth.

We need to all realize that it is the irresponsible users in every OHV community that is destroying things for all of us. If they can arbitrarily shut out 4x4's with no warning at all, than they can do it to quads and to bikes at some point.
4x4 cutlines make great access to our single track UNRECOGNIZED ILLEGAL trails in Waiporous. We need 4x4 trails to remain opened.

i am a little calmer today but also a little sadder that a government can TAKE from its people and that is OK with other user groups. i don't get it.
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Post by dirtyboy »

Diamond Dave,

Sounds like the start of a great proposal. IMO, it answers a lot questions and would be a huge step in the right direction. :dblthumb:

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Post by WR_Dave »

I like it !!! Good way to set up some controls on this type of irresponsible user. The rules need to have some consequences. As far as opening up areas , just RE-OPEN some of the recently closed areas and there will be more room for all groups concerned. Thanks Diamond Dave. -- WR Dave.
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Post by thumper-darryl »

Many of the concerns raised, user fees, control on random camping, trail standards, etc. are on the table and being delt with by the Rec Corridors Committee. Nothing new here. We just have to hope the Gov puts it through.
And Paul, biking has been well represented in talks with The Honourable Ted Morton.
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Post by Brent »

I went through IG on my way to Livingstone this last long weekend and they were stopping everyone with the handouts showing the limited random camping zones. if this does help clamp down on the crazies, then great. The officer also said something in regards to eventually clamping down on trucks.
I, however, strongly dissagree on seggregating (sp?) the OHV's. if we start pointing fingers at each other, we are going to spend all of our time battling each other, which is very non productive. this is the last thing we should be doing. The green's don't care how many wheels, or what size, they just use what ever ammo they can get together to stir the pot. I helped out 2 years ago with the cleanup at Mclean creek after may long and if it wasn't for the hardwork and donations supplied by the 4x4 clubs, we would still be wading through the mess. my hat goes off to those guys, they are very organized and get a huge job done every year without causing a big stink.

May long weekend is obviously the problem and the green's know it too. Every other long weekend does not have the mayhem that may long has. it really wouldn't bother me at all if the local riding areas were closed down for just the one long weekend. there are other places to go.
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Post by dirtyboy »

Here's a letter from our AOHVA leader in response to the closures.
Minister Morton,

Recent press releases and news articles show that your commitment to do something about the rowdy behaviour that has been witnessed during May long weekends over the last number of years was real, and I would like to commend you for making good on your promise. It may not be the perfect solution, but in our world there is no such thing as perfect.

But, there are some concerns that must be expressed.

How was the 363 kg limit on OHV vehicles arrived at? Was there consultation with COHV, the manufacturers association? Would some discussion with AOHVA regarding the units that might or might not meet this limit not have been useful? Certainly both of us would have been pleased to offer our services.

The limit chosen may be the correct number to use, but it is not the same as other areas in the province that have similar regulations. It will also eliminate the use of some ATV and UTV models that might not have been intended. This may also lead to an enforcement problem due to confusion of which models are legal and those that are not.

We feel that there is a need to standardise regulations and definitions across the province or even better across the country. We do know for certain that the Alberta Off Highway Vehicle Association, the ATV Quad Council of Canada, the Motorcyclists Confederations of Canada, and the Canadian Off Highway Vehicle Manufacturers Association have significant expertise in this and would very much like to help all levels of government develop them. Our relations with U.S. associations such as the National Off Highway Vehicle Conservation Council, the Off Road Business Association, and the Blue Ribbon Coalition could bring additional expertise to the table.

I would also caution you and your department that we will not know the true success of this initiative until May long weekend next year. Historically, the major problems have occurred at this time and although there are always issues on other long weekends, rarely do they come any where near the magnitude of those in May. Have heard opinions that this may be related to graduation parties or winter blues, but for whatever reason it has become an annual disaster that needed to be addressed.

We realise that the off highway recreation needs of Albertans are difficult to manage and that from time to time there are situations that need quick responses. You have shown the courage and ability to do that. At the same time, we believe that we must look at the potential long term results from any actions and to create policy that will serve future generations of Albertans looking to enjoy the spectacular outdoors we are so lucky to have at our doorsteps.

Bob Smith
President
Alberta Off Highway Vehicle Association
PO Box 38106
1086 Capilano Mall
Edmonton, Alberta
T6A 0A0

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