KTM xc/xcw starter issue

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malcolmzilla
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KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby malcolmzilla » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:17 am

Posting up quick tech write up on a repair, temporary at this point, to an issue I encountered with the starter system on my 15 XC.
Other years 08-15 XCW and XC similar, haven't seen this issue covered here yet (quick search).

Symptom: Random starting, in neutral only, lots of noise and hard ugly stops of the starter assembly, and forget cold cranking it...
So, pretty much all systems normal for a KTM starter.

~86 hours on the bike, new to me.

Decide to take a look at the usual suspects. Wow this thing is definitely an afterthought and cobbled together, so much gear friction it needs the reduction to even turn the motor over, at a blistering 60rpm. :confused:

Removed the starter motor. Turned over smooth and on 12V bench test ran good.
Remove ignition cover to inspect bendix gear.
Shrapnel everywhere, dried grease, grit n bits, metal shards on pickup and had been abrading the stator epoxy.
Bendix works ok by hand and smooth.

Bushings looked ok, but dry, except the outer bendix support bushing; completely MIA the gear had been chowdering out the cover bushing pocket, misaligning the bendix mesh.

IMG_0416.JPG

IMG_0417.JPG


Well, there's your problem right there buddy. :thinking:

Called for a new ignition cover, but given the holiday break, cover wont be in until January, and I wanted to ride.
Note: Cycleworks was open and normally stocks one cover as this is a common issue, but had sold it, and was waiting on one.
They did have the sorry little pieces of junk KTM calls bushings ($2 ea), so I grabbed a few as "consumables" in anticipation of the new cover arriving, and these wearing quickly.

IMG_1013.jpg


I could've just removed the starter gearing, sealed the starter input, and replaced the cover, making it a kick only for the ride, but the MacGruber in me was too strong to subdue...

Image

And it was -30 and I had a few days. And I paid for e-start dammit. Nothing to lose, so...

Filled the pocket flush with Permatex "steel" type epoxy (covered stator/pickup in case). Let it set under mild heat ~8 hours, then somewhat carefully center punched it and drilled it. Maybe should've set it up in the drill press, but such a fine Austrian design didn't seem to merit that level of precision.

IMG_10419.jpg


This stuff was soft, maybe it needed longer to set, or was just janky. BUT IT SAID GOOD FOR 4000 PSI IN 4 HOURS ON THE TUBE??? NOOOOOO!!!

Piloted it, then stepped up in drill sizes until the OD of the bushing (again, that's a strong term) was reached, made a bit of a bottoming bit by grinding the last size drill bit nose off and bottomed out the new epoxy bushing pocket.

Tapped the "bushing" (again, harhar KTM) in, and set the bendix in and measured the standoff from the case edge, and checked that against the case bendix output support on the bike, to ensure that re-installation didn't crack the cover.

IMG_10420.JPG

IMG_10421.JPG


Did the Slaven's YouTube clean and greasing, reassembled it all.

Laser temperature of engine case 5C, cranked the starter and it fired up, with only "normal" KTM starter noises, ie: crankcases full of marbles. :applause:

So far haven't had to kick it yet, even during the whole ride, it was used very frequently (ride is a strong term given conditions), so maybe its holding. Or perhaps the ignition is now full of bushing and epoxy. :redneck: Find out when the new cover shows up.

Anyhow, if you have one of these superbly engineered starter systems :lol:, hope this helps out. Definitely inspect and clean and lube regularly.
Last edited by malcolmzilla on Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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KTM xc/xcw starter issue

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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby dirtyboy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:37 am

Pretty amazing. Nice write up. Thanks.

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malcolmzilla
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby malcolmzilla » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:45 am

I reckon you can attest to how much my e-start was recruited during the ride! ROFL

Normal bike position that day...

IMG_1039.jpg
15 Yamaha YZ250FX, 270cc, cams
15 XC250
11 Berg 570, dualsport and supermoto
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby Dobi » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:23 am

nice write up. I have had little to no luck with those starters over the years and wound up being 3 or 4 replacements and a handful of bendix's over time. I sure hope the new design is better because the new kickstarter sucks and is going to eat boots :thumbsdown:

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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby Brass » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:57 pm

When you get back in the garage with it to install the new parts, while you're there open up the starter motor, pull the armature out and add grease to the end cap bearings. KTM accounting people figured out they could save $0.02 cents by not adding any grease to them and force you to buy more parts when they chew themselves up.
:cheers:
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby malcolmzilla » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:14 pm

Dobi, see boot penny tech, thanks for the tip Brass ,I will grease those too.
Last edited by malcolmzilla on Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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11 Berg 570, dualsport and supermoto
17 PW50
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby bikingagain » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:37 pm

Great write up.
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby malcolmzilla » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:27 pm

2 more rides. Still have not kicked it once.
Edit: let me clarify, have not had to kickstart it. Kicking, well, it was a lazy bike and wouldn’t stay upright :D
Last edited by malcolmzilla on Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
15 Yamaha YZ250FX, 270cc, cams
15 XC250
11 Berg 570, dualsport and supermoto
17 PW50
78ish CT70
Just another Dirt Donkey...

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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby RJHenry » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:15 pm

Has anyone tried the Slavens "wet" modifications?
1) Plug the case cover drain
2) Punch a hole in the stator wiring grommet
3) Add a vent (KTM 45130022000) in the added hole
4) Reassemble and fill with light oil (fork, ATF, etc.)

I have considered doing this to Kaitlyn's Freeride. Any adverse effect of the stator soaking in oil?

Interestingly, Jeff Slavens states that he developed the wet mod it for a customer but does not like it or use it on his own bikes. He cleans and regreases yearly. https://slavensracing.com/shop/2015-bendix-crown-wheel-upgrade-kit-for-ktm-husaberg-husqvarna-200250300/

He even gives KTM props for the affordability of the bushings that Malcolm likes so much :D
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby malcolmzilla » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:08 pm

Most 4 stroke stators circulate oil wet iirc, as long as you don't fill it too much an create windage, should be OK.
Given the inspection frequency mandated by the bushing wear rate, I'd be inclined to keep it dry and greased to facilitate that.
Maybe the freeride has different guts? Still got the epoxy if you need a dab :D
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby RJHenry » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:43 pm

Freeride is 250 two stroke. Looks like the same old 25/300 starter system (though hers is a 17 and cranks like CRAZY! - maybe fixed?)
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby trailguy » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm

RJHenry wrote:Has anyone tried the Slavens "wet" modifications?
1) Plug the case cover drain
2) Punch a hole in the stator wiring grommet
3) Add a vent (KTM 45130022000) in the added hole
4) Reassemble and fill with light oil (fork, ATF, etc.)

I have considered doing this to Kaitlyn's Freeride. Any adverse effect of the stator soaking in oil?

Interestingly, Jeff Slavens states that he developed the wet mod it for a customer but does not like it or use it on his own bikes. He cleans and regreases yearly. https://slavensracing.com/shop/2015-bendix-crown-wheel-upgrade-kit-for-ktm-husaberg-husqvarna-200250300/

He even gives KTM props for the affordability of the bushings that Malcolm likes so much :D

I did a buddy's 2014 XC 300 with the wet mod. We did not add the vent, just added oil and sealed cover with silicone. He put a ton of hours on it for two years and never opened the cover. No issues.

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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby boland » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:58 pm

Slavens has a more recent video essentially denouncing his previous wet mod video. He did not find the wet mod worth it and advises people to just clean and grease it regularly. The title of the video is “how to service the KTM 250/300 e-starter gear drive”.
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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby RJHenry » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:54 am

RJHenry wrote:Interestingly, Jeff Slavens states that he developed the wet mod it for a customer but does not like it or use it on his own bikes. He cleans and regreases yearly. https://slavensracing.com/shop/2015-bendix-crown-wheel-upgrade-kit-for-ktm-husaberg-husqvarna-200250300/

He even gives KTM props for the affordability of the bushings that Malcolm likes so much :D


boland wrote:Slavens has a more recent video essentially denouncing his previous wet mod video. He did not find the wet mod worth it and advises people to just clean and grease it regularly. The title of the video is “how to service the KTM 250/300 e-starter gear drive”.

We are in violent agreement.
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2016 Husqvarna FE350

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Re: KTM xc/xcw starter issue

Postby Brass » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:58 pm

From my own OCD bike maintenance experience, regular removal cleaning and greasing of all the bushings and the starter end cap bearing is all that is needed.

Once one of the bushings or bearings starts to loosen up, it will increase the loading on the others causing the rest to wear at an increased rate and adding drag to the starter, at some point causing it to fail as well.

If the bendix bushings have worn, I would bet the starter end cap bearing is also showing signs that it needs some love.

Likely overkill but my maintance checklists had the starter out every 5 rides for cleaning and lube. In all the time that we have had e-start 2t bikes in the garage, not one starter related issue. I would say most could go to 10 or 20 rides between services (depending on starter use) but I enjoy working on my bikes. For me it is a relaxation technique.

Your mileage may vary.
The voices are back. Awesome!

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