KTM EFI 2 strokes

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trailguy
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KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby trailguy » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:26 pm

It will not be long now and KTM/Husky will be moving to EFI in order to meet the euro4 and much stricter euro5 emissions. Looks like Lars Enockl and KTM snuck one by everyone at the RedBull Megawatt event, as it clearly shows no carb, fuel pump connection at the gas tank and ECU up on the steering head. KTM is claiming the bikes are working great in R&D testing.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some funky model year/release dates as KTM hushers in the last of the carb bikes that would not pass emissions by a set date.
Back around 2008 KTM had a Direct Injected 2T ready to roll. I talked with a KTM employee who was at the Factory in Austria on business and he was brought into one of the R&D rooms and he spotted the DI 2T, when he asked a question about it he was quickly removed from the room - guess he wasn't supposed to be in there. I believe that bike would have gone into production had the economy not crashed at that time.
Looks like DI has been shelved for now and they are going EFI at this point. I have mixed thoughts on EFI/DI as it will add weight, cost and complexity.
Although with this Mikuni gong show on the 2017's I am warming up to EFI.
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KTM EFI 2 strokes

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby Hooligan » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:53 pm

How does a direct injection system lubricate the bottom end?

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby trailguy » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:16 pm

Hooligan wrote:How does a direct injection system lubricate the bottom end?

Could do it couple different ways. There are some dual DI systems where one injector go's right into the head as well as one into the crankcase.

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby Dobi » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:57 am

http://www.enduro21.com/index.php/40-ge ... wo-strokes

ITS COMING!!! Get out your tinfoil hats :blush:

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby 350scott » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:41 pm

Counter balancer and EFi, might even make me think about a 2 stroke, provided they are still cheaper than the 4 strokes. Although they might end up heavier than a 4 stroke.
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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby cedric » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:53 pm

Hooligan wrote:How does a direct injection system lubricate the bottom end?


I believe the BRP system uses oil injection to directly lube the bearings and top end, while the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber as the piston passes the ports. I wonder if the KTM system works similarly?

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby trailguy » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:07 pm

cedric wrote:
Hooligan wrote:How does a direct injection system lubricate the bottom end?


I believe the BRP system uses oil injection to directly lube the bearings and top end, while the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber as the piston passes the ports. I wonder if the KTM system works similarly?

It will be interesting to see if KTM is going pre-mix with a throttle body or go's the Beta route like you mentioned with straight gas & oil injection.
A better photo. Note the two throttle cables for the throttle body.
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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby Brass » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:25 am

I don't find this to be surprising at all. Think of this, KTM made a switch to Mikuni carbs after a very long relationship with Keihn which they maintain on the EFI 4t bikes and stated the switch was because Keihn would not be able to supply the quantity needed. But they always had in the past .... hmmm.. I suspect that lost production capacity was because Keihn is in fact re-tooling for production of 2t EFI throttle bodies. But that is just my speculation.

As for the cost and complexity of these bikes, I again suspect that KTM will save money in the long run. The shared components with the 4t bikes increases and means they buy more bulk and stock less components. Fuel pumps, ECU, throttle bodies, throttles and cables, even wire harnesses will be more commonly used across the model lines. True we will see an increase in prices at the dealers. However I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the cost of production for these new bikes will be lower than the current carb version because of the shared components. Translation, there will be more profit for KTM.

Going with EFI seems like a natural progression. It has been proven to work in the 4t lineup and for the most part is very reliable. The weight "penalty" is negligible when you think of it. What is added? A fuel pump, but that is in the fuel tank and displaces fuel that is likely just as heavy. The throttle body is comparable to a carb. The only real addition is the ECU and that will only be fractionally heavier than the CDI box it will replace. If you want to save some weight after buying one of these bikes, remove the kick starter! (did you ever think you would hear/read that!?!?)

DI doesn't seem as practical to me for dirt bikes since it generally requires a higher pressure system to operate. The higher pressures necessitate smaller tolerances in injectors. That can be dealt with in boat motors, snowmobiles and such where they don't see the same potential fuel contamination but on a dirt bike, the dirt that always seems to find a way into the fuel could be a problem.

If I was designing the EFI system for KTM, I would keep the system as a pre-mix fuel type. The pre-mix fuel would increase the service life of the injector and remove the need for an additional pump, tank and second injection system. A knock sensor and temperature sensor could easily be used to tailor the ignition timing and fuel/air ratio to get the motor to meet emission requirements.

The pictures of the EFI bike on Enduro21 unfortunately are at the wrong angles to see what KTM did in fact go with. The 2 throttle cables is typical of EFI systems for safety to ensure the throttle closes. This is due to the use of a butterfly throttle valve and TPS as opposed to a slide valve. That does not rule out a separate oil injection system. I would expect an electronic injection system tied to the TPS sensor via the ECU if there was a separate oil tank.

What I find very interesting in the picture is the direction of the fuel line. :thinking:
(Edit) I guess I should say that we can't see if the injector is mounted on the throttle body, the engine case or the cylinder.


I can't wait to see more pictures!
Last edited by Brass on Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby cedric » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:45 am

I wouldn't think a conventional EFI system is going to do enough to get 2-strokes through the new emissions tests. You are still pumping unburned fuel out the tailpipe. If passing those tests is really the goal, it seems they would have to go to DI.

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby Brass » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:15 pm

KTM just spent a lot of time and money developing a completely new line of 2 stroke motors and that new engine layout doesn't lend itself to direct injection. I have no doubt that they took the new emission requirements into account when they designed that motor.

My money is on a "regular" EFI system like we already see in the 4t bikes with an injector mounted just ahead of the reed block and an air sensor mounted just ahead of the throttle body.

:cheers:
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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby Hooligan » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:33 pm

Brass wrote:KTM just spent a lot of time and money developing a completely new line of 2 stroke motors and that new engine layout doesn't lend itself to direct injection. I have no doubt that they took the new emission requirements into account when they designed that motor.

My money is on a "regular" EFI system like we already see in the 4t bikes with an injector mounted just ahead of the reed block and an air sensor mounted just ahead of the throttle body.

:cheers:


Injecting pre-mix downstream of the reed blocks is not direct injection and would not solve the emissions issues inherent in 2-strokes. A direct injection system will need to work more like diesel engine injection where the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber after the exhaust port has closed. This is the only way a 2-stoke will ever meet emissions targets.

The problem with such a system is how do you lubricate the bottom end bearings? And if you are using intake charge to lubricate the bottom end, how do you reduce emissions?

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby AJRJ » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:48 pm

Semi direct injection, with downstream injectors can yield very good results without the penalties of DI. Injecting into the transfer ports can save tons of fuel and provide a smoother powerband.

I would agree, this new motor doesm't seem to be set up for DI. Lubrication is mostlikely going to be via injection, there just isn't the fuel washing through the case to lube the bottom end. The real tell tale is the cooling. The bottom end of DI motors needs to have coolant passage; again the fuel that typically does the cooling is gone.

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby AJRJ » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:49 pm

Semi direct injection, with downstream injectors can yield very good results without the penalties of DI. Injecting into the transfer ports can save tons of fuel and provide a smoother powerband.

I would agree, this new motor doesm't seem to be set up for DI. Lubrication is most likely going to be via injection, there just isn't the fuel washing through the case to lube the bottom end. The real tell tale is the cooling. The bottom end of DI motors needs to have coolant passages; again the fuel that typically does the cooling is gone.

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby trailguy » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:34 pm

KTM already has Euro4 figured out on the 2T EFI. There are some big changes/technology coming from KTM over the next 6 years that will see most or all of the 17 new bikes introduced in the last two years, replaced with all new bikes in the near future, 4T included. Get your deposit on a 2018.5 Factory Edition now :smirk: its gonna be awesome.
My guess is the new 2T EFI passes euro4 and we see an all new 2T engine for 2020 to pass euro5. KTM does not want to move to injection, they are being forced to with the new emissions. The cost to move to injection is between $500 - $1000 and they say will add 5 - 10 lbs. per bike. 10 lbs. seems excessive to me as 4T gained 5 lbs. when they moved from carbs to EFI, so I can't see it being more than 5 lbs.
KTM has big goals with sales numbers and all new models coming. Besides their push into the street market, the CEO stated they want to dominate the motocross market { this was the main reason for the Husky purchase from BMW } taking a big piece from the Japanese brands. These guys have the pedal to the floor and they are holding it down with a GasGas { sorry about the weight dig GG riders, who builds a 252 lbs. 200 :smirk: }
We know the Vet classes have a strong KTM presence, but this article from MXA was shocking.
"At the 2016 Mini O’s in Florida, where riders over the age of 30 only make up 5% of the total turnout, the brand breakdown was shocking. In the Mini O’s motocross classes there were only 109 Hondas entered in the event, Husqvarna accounted for 124 riders on the sign-up sheets, Suzuki had 137 riders, Kawasaki had 358 entrants and Yamaha had a healthy 588 riders. But wait, there’s more! KTM had 802 riders. You read that right. Of the 2118 bikes from the Big Six at a major amateur race, KTM’s accounted for 40% of all the bikes there. They dominated in the 65cc, 85cc and Supermini classes, but ran a healthy second in most of the other 43 classes at Gatorback."

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Re: KTM EFI 2 strokes

Postby thirtyseven » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:19 pm

Well. I feel dumb.
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