Attention Suspension Experts

[brentg]

I am in the middle of some tuning on my suspension and I am getting to that point where my changes are having unexpected and unwanted results. I considered sending them away, but I really think that I should at least try to handle this myself before dropping a grand. I am about 220 lbs geared up and an intermediate type rider. I replaced the stock rear spring with a heavier progressive rate spring. Now, with absolute minimum preload I have absolute minimum static and race sag (30mm and 100mm). I backed off the low speed compression to 28 clicks from full and the high speed to 2 full turns from full. Rebound is at 18 clicks. I have not done much to the front yet. Last night I took it out and got the exact opposite of what I expected. The front felt light and was washing out, particularly on downhill turns. I was expecting it to dive in the corners but it was definitely pushing. Rear wheel traction was greatly improved though. My thoughts were to still go ahead and treat the front like it is too soft. Heavier spring to keep it higher then a bit more air gap and less compression to get it plush. Maybe I need less rebound dampening? Thoughts? Am I on the right track?

[Rider Eh!]

It sounds like you are testing without any background on suspension basics. Id suggest picking up some knowledge from tuners online before doing anything, there are some manuals on basic tunning to be found on the web. You need to match your fork springs to your rear heavier shock spring, your bike is now out of balance. Always start with stock settings and adjust rebound first. Leave compression alone. People make the mistake of adjusting compression first as the clickers are easy to get at. Always only do one setting and either fork or shock at a time. Never do anything simultaneously or you won't know what's happening. An adjustment to your shock will affect how your front end feels and vice versa.

For what its worth, I almost always tell people they need to spend more time on the throttle and less on the brakes to go faster, not use their suspension as an excuse. So take my advice with a grain of salt.

[cerealkiller]

I'm no expert, but if you only changed the rear spring I would reason that was the cause for the odd behavior. Especially if it was a big jump in spring rate (sounds like it was if you are only able to get the minimum sag numbers). My guess is the rear isn't compressing as much as the front when you hit bumps and corners, putting more weight on the front tire than it can handle.

Also, unless your suspension has a different number of clicks than mine, it sounds like you've made some extreme adjustments to compression and rebound. I would return to stock and tune from there. (I think that's like 13-15 clicks out). At 28 clicks out for compression I'm not sure your valving is doing much. 18 clicks out for rebound is already way out, so I wouldn't add more.

Again, this is my inexpert opinion, but it sounds like you're trying some extreme clicker adjustments to compensate for suspension that's just unbalanced. After I changed my springs, I was still only a couple clicks from the stock settings.

[trailguy]

Rider eh wrote "For what its worth, I almost akways tell people they need to spend more time on the throttle and less on the brakes to go faster, not use their suspension as an excuse. So take my advice with a grain of salt."
Have you ridden a 2014 KTM XC/XCF with stock 4CS forks? They are a jackhammering that no amount of throttle can fix
Brentg, I would get the correct fork springs for your weight and start with stock clicker settings.

[primerib72]

To add what Rider eh mentioned....you are out of balance without a doubt. Also, changing the spring rate drastically will have a huge impact on the way the suspension dampens now. Getting the springs correct is one thing, getting the dampening to work with the addition spring load is another. Sometimes no matter how you adjust the clickers it won't help. Your shim stacks and valves might have to be changed to compensate.

BTW.....if you used the Racetech website to see what your spring rate is, take that advice with a grain of salt. A simple phone call to a tuner is worth more.

[thirtyseven]

Rider eh wrote "For what its worth, I almost akways tell people they need to spend more time on the throttle and less on the brakes to go faster, not use their suspension as an excuse. So take my advice with a grain of salt."
Have you ridden a 2014 KTM XC/XCF with stock 4CS forks? They are a jackhammering that no amount of throttle can fix
Brentg, I would get the correct fork springs for your weight and start with stock clicker settings.

Amen. Although for the first 10 hrs mine were really good on the small hack, I think that valve on the bottom of the clicker rods is causing everyone intermittent grief.

[brentg]

Well, no .46 fork springs in town so I will have to go back to the stock spring on the back for shale shaker. I have set up a lot of suspensions in my days, although this is my first PDS. I knew it would be out of whack, but I thought I could add oil and increase compression up front to get it close. Nope. I also thought if it was diving I would be able to "learn it" for a couple of rides. What surprised me was that it was washing. That's the opposite of what I have seen before. I'll wait until I get heavier fork springs, then I'll try again. Thanks for all the feedback. I'm sure I'll be looking for some knowledge when I start round 2.

[Brass]

Brent, I recommend you contact Riders Edge for yours springs. They can put a set on a bus for you and have them here in no time. There may be a chance that if you call them in the morning, they could put a set on the bus for you the same day.

If the springs alone don't help you get the result you want. I strongly recommend Riders Edge for the tuning. They do great work. I speak from experience. They did a few sets for me and I always came away happy. They are also the only suspension tuner that advertises on here (support your club supporters!)

On the other hand a local tuner in Airdrie had tried to sort out the suspension on my 2014 and after 4 failed attempts, he stopped returning my calls and emails. I was so frustrated with the jackhammering suspension that I sold the bike. Now I'm on the 4CS that everyone says jackhammers and find them to be smooth by comparison to the Airdrie tuned setup.

[erniebearskin]

Thats crazy Brass... I had the opposite experience, I had Riders Edge tune my suspension on my last GasGas and for the money I spent I felt some minor improvement, but it definately didnt blow me away. When I called Ian to discuss I was basically told "GasGas suspension is pretty terrible, so thats as good as we can make it" which may be the truth, I would have appreciated to hear that before I dropped the $1400.00 so I could have made a more informed decision.

Now I recently had my 4CS & PDS on my Berg tuned by Pro-Action and I am pretty blown away, it was night & day......particularly the fork. Met Don after he set my sag and gave me some suspension tips for no charge at our first club night, after some discussions with Don & a recomendation from Trailguy I had front & rear re-valved and bladder kit done in rear. Dropped off on a Monday morning & picked up Thursday night. Couldnt be happier, major improvment, especially in rooty sludge and rocky climbs. I was letting out some woo-hoo's on my first ride out.

Although very busy Don was still available for questions etc (sometimes needed a couple calls), and he was upfront with me stating that 4CS are still a work in progress for Pro-Action which was appreciated.

I agree Riders Edge does alot of good work with KTM, but I would go to Pro-Action again in a second, he's local....if I'm unhappy hes only 40 mins away.

[cerealkiller]

What kind of forks are on your bike Brent? I have the stock springs from my 2012 350 XCF -which I think are .46 or .47's. My forks are the closed cartridge type though, and I thought your 2-stroke came with the open variety.

If they might work for you, I could probably be persuaded to part with them...

[Dave8444]

I have a set of 4.6 shock springs for 4CS forks I will let you have them super cheap. I would go back and re check your sag and rebound on the rear. What forks are they on your bike?
Dave

[Brass]

I agree Riders Edge does alot of good work with KTM, but I would go to Pro-Action again in a second, he's local....if I'm unhappy hes only 40 mins away.

That was what I thought as well. At first he said he would keep trying until he got it right. After 4 attempts to get my suspension to stop feeling like I had a set of 2x4's for forks, they were probably fine for MX duty, he stopped replying to my calls and emails. He came away from it with $1000 of my cash, I came away with suspension I hated so much that I got rid of the bike!!! He didn't even return my original valves so I could return the bike to stock!

When the calls and emails were no longer being replied to, I took that as a clear message that I was out the $$ and was not going to get any further support from him. I learned my lesson and have moved on.

Back to the original post;

I think Brent has and XC-W with open chamber forks. They would be different from the CC or 4cs springs wouldn't they?

[brentg]

Thanks for the offer Dave. Brass is right though, mine are open chamber and not the dreaded 4CS. I did put in .46 springs and I changed the oil and cleaned them up while I had them open. Clickers front and back are back to stock settings and now I will start again from there, if I am ever able to find the time to ride again that is.

[brentg]

So my procedure for re-installing forks usually goes like this.
1. Move right fork leg into triple clamps.
2. Carefully set the height of the fork using the marks on the top of the fork and turn the fork to properly position the bleeder.
3. Precisely torque triple head bolts carefully tightening each one slightly until all reach the desired torque setting.
4. Double-check height of the fork and then torque the fork cap properly.
5. Repeat steps 1 to 4 for the left fork leg.
6. Install and torque the front brake assembly.
7. Gently pry open brake calipers.
8. Apply waterproof grease to the front axle.
8. Slide front wheel into position.
9. Begin sliding axle through hub.
10. Realize that both fork leg protectors are sitting on my workbench.
11. Swear.
12. Remove fork legs, install protectors and start again.

Does anyone else use a similar procedure, or is it just me???

[timbruce]

I thought it was just me