Lots of Shooting Activity

[Braap791]

If anybody is riding in the south end of Maclean keep your eyes and ears open for the sounds of target shooters. We ran into 6 different groups of guys that had set up shop around 2 seperate wellsites very close to where you pop out of the woods. One group was saw us pop out of the bush and stopped shooting the rest kept booming away. Its turning into the wild west out there. I know its not illegal to shoot on crown land but it would be nice to be able to ride without worrying about getting shot at

[Zeal]

A few weeks ago I was in the same area and talked to the guys shooting. I let the know there was a number of trail heads in the areas behind their targets. They were very apologetic and told us that the RCMP actually drove them to that location and told them it was a good safe place to shoot.

It is definitely a safety concern. Hopefully nobody gets shot.

[porschev]

Many of us have been commenting on the increase of shooters the past two seasons, I wonder has there been range closers in the area or something?
Along with the safety issue is the mess many of these shooting groups are leaving, it's brutal! It's one more irresponsible user group the area didn't need.

Personally I think it's an enforcement issue, it's been bloody pathetic!

Anybody else surprised at the number of officers that were in attendance during the filming of movies out there?

[Braap791]

I think alot of it is that people do not want to go to that sibbald free range and do not have access to a private facility or are too cheap to pay the 100 a year to have the access. Sibbald is covered in garbage and can be a pretty unsafe/busy place to shoot. I know a group of people took a few construction dumpsters of garbage out of that area for a few years in a row and than gave up because the garbage kept getting worse!

[Rider Eh!]

What I don't understand is why they have a sign saying all firearms must be locked up at the entrance to McLean, yet allow this to happen. Seems contradictory. I love the guys who cover their license plates too.

[erniebearskin]

Yup, nothing like riding out in Maclean with you 5 year old, and a bunch of hilllbillys swiggin Coors banquets trying to shoot beer cans out of the air 50 meters away.

Im honestly suprised its legal out there, and on the enforcment topic, I have seen almost no enforment of anything out in Maclean since I started using the area 4 years ago, which Im sure is due to funding etc.

Cerealkiller and I were riding from 5K sunday AM and they were shooting guns right from the parking area just to the south of us.

[twotired]

What I don't understand is why they have a sign saying all firearms must be locked up at the entrance to McLean, yet allow this to happen. Seems contradictory. I love the guys who cover their license plates too.

There is a legal hunting season there right now. They are allowed to carry and shoot firearms there.

[WRocks]

It is Legal to discharge a firearm "Safely" on crown lands, but from there is where the lines get blurry.
I believe and have observed that the majority of those shooting on Crown land want to do it safely and respect other users.
I have talked to several shooters and generally are very good at choosing a shooting location with clear line of sight and backstop, as well as picking up their garbage.
However, there is not denying that there are those who don't know, don't care, etc.

There is a serious lack of...
Organized places to shoot a firearm - To date, ESRD has wanted little to nothing to do with the issue. Liability is a huge issue, does not want anything to do with shooting ranges on public lands. Yet does not want to ban the practice.
Education by those discharging firearms - many do not know what trail infrastructure is in the area.
Enforcement - It is legal, so can they can only enforce if something illegal is going on. Not to mention there is a major lack of enforcement.

I have gone out once and done some shooting, but no longer go, as I don't want to contribute to the problem. Fortunately my parents have a farm/ranch that I can go to and do all the shooting I want, but most do not have this.
Unfortunately, this problem is going to continue to get worse before it gets better. I think it will take someone being injured by a someone shooting on crown land, before things change.
More organized gun ranges are required, but requires ESRD to issue a disposition for one and a gun club to assume the liability to build, operate and reclaim it. Also requires legislation forcing non-hunting shooting to be done at a range.
Furthermore, since it is legal and free to shoot on crown land, many shooters feel they shouldn't have to pay, so are not likely to use a public range anyway.

Of note restricted firearms (i.e. handguns, AR-15/M-16) are not permitted to be transported to/from or fired anywhere other than a gun club range.
Prohibited firearms (i.e. automatic weapons) are not legal to posses or fire anywhere.
If I ever see anyone shooting these, I will take a picture of the activity and license plate and report it to the RCMP.
They don't take too kindly to this kind of thing (its a criminal offence) and there's a decent chance they can lay charges, seize the firearm and revoke their restricted license (which means forfeiting all restricted weapons they posses).

It is illegal to..
Discharge firearms on crown land, while under the influence of alcohol.
Threaten or point a firearm (criminal offence).

The only recourse we have as a user group right now is to ensure those who are not doing it safely or are doing illegal activity are reported. There is a tendency to complain about what is going on, but has anyone reported illegal activity?
Personally I am not intimidated by those shooting firearms. Even though they have a firearm, they tread a thin line, as anything threatening involving a firearm is a serious criminal offence. However, avoiding conflict is a good idea.
I have no issue approaching them (provided I think it is safe to do so) and letting them know if what they are doing is safe or not.
I think it is important to let them know we are out there and are watching, rather than ride by or away and complain about it.
Please note, I am not singling anyone out in this thread, just voicing an opinion...

[Shibby!]

I am both a shooting enthusiast and OHV user. A few points to touch on as well:

1) An M-16 is a prohibited rifle and not allowed in Canada. For those who don't know, the M-16 is a AR-15 that can be switched to full auto. Any full auto weapon is prohibited in Canada.

2) Yes, AR's and any and all handguns are restricted weapons and should not be out there. Even rim-fire. These are criminal offences. Keep in mind some "dangerous" looking guns are non-restricted like the XCR, Tavor, 97T etc. Before reporting people ensure exactly what you saw. Some AR looking guns are rim-fires (which some are restricted, and some non-restricted - SR-22), and some restricted looking guns are non-restricted. Sound confusing? Many police don't know which is which. Those are our gun laws and besides being very familiar with what you are looking at, even those who make the restricted / non-restricted classifications can't explain why some are and some are not restricted. The perfect example is the AR-15. An exceptional rifle with which I own and use in sporting competitions.

I believe a few things have increased the popularity of shooting in recent years:

1) T.V shows
2) Cheap surplus arms

Here's where things get tricky with what's already mentioned. Yes, it's perfectly legal to be shooting on crown land. The key point here is, as mentioned, it must be done SAFELY.

Some users "think" their safe and are not. We know that because we know the trial systems. Legal or not. The shooters responsibility is to know they are shooting in a safe direction.

I've encountered people and forums where views vary wildly, but I try to express and point out that certain locations (likely the ones discussed in this thread) are NOT safe locations. I show the trail network behind their shooting locations using goggle maps and still some don't agree with me. In fact Mclean in general is a poor location to shoot. That doesn't mean Wiaparous is any better as I can only recall one good location. I am familiar with many of the legal and non-legal trials.

So why does it happen? Likely two reason. People are too cheap to pay for memberships, and two, local clubs are either full or are extremely difficult to get a membership. I am a member of the local Calgary District Shooting Association and the Rocky Mountain Rod and Gun club. This is about $500/yr membership fees. I was a member at TSE which is near $500 annual fees alone. The only reason I got into the Calgary District club is because I got involved with the right people in competitions and events allowing me to get early access to memberships which increased this year.

Other ranges near by are Sibbald (extremely hard to get membership with mandatory involvement in competitions and issues with members not being given access to the range unsupervised (275$/hr)), Drumheller (100$/yr), Milo (sold out for 2015 already - new range - 275$/yr), Lethbridge ($80/yr), Taber (?/yr), CSC (650?$/yr), TSE ($475/yr) etc. If you think dirt biking is difficult, you haven't seen much.

IMO, what should be done is safely approach the shooters and explain the situation in a respectful manor. Gauge the situation and if you believe alcohol or issues will arise it's probably best to walk away and report the users. Otherwise, I'm sure plenty of shooters will welcome the idea of knowing the location is unsafe and be informed why (even though they SHOULD know this already). Also, already noted is pointing a weapon at anybody is a criminal offence and should not be taken lightly. Report the people immediately.

As with anything there are a few bad apples (in my opinion, growing in numbers) who shoot in an unsafe manor and leave a mess behind. The good in the group are attempting to control this but much like OHV users, it's not a simple process. The government has made it extremely difficult to open, maintain and/or comply with CFO's requirements for ranges to operate. Options close to Calgary are extremely limited.

[WRocks]

Great post and point of view Shibby...I think you hit the nail on the head...

Totally agree that in general the PLUZ areas are a poor/unsafe areas to be shooting. There's more of them all the time and convincing people of that is another issue.
To me the moral of the story is that given lack of options (mainly thanks to government inaction), people make poor decisions.
Same story for the OHV group in a way, but difference here is that someone innocent could be seriously hurt or worse.
There's no real solution to this problem without government action and/or legislation...

[Braap791]

Just wanted to post an update regarding one of the "shooting ranges" in the south end. I guess the access road has been closed off due to "vandalisim" in the area.

[WRocks]

Good to see that was closed off... If it is the one I am thinking of, there's a heck of a mess there too.

I camped out at the South PRA during the trailblazer weekend. There were a couple young men shooting a shotgun at the abandoned well site.
I rode up talked to them, just letting them know shooting was legal in the PLUZ (as long as they did not litter) and they were shooting in a safe direction.
I checked back after they were gone and there wasn't a trace they were there, was nice to see...

[twotired]

I found this thread titled "Gun Range Road Closed by Millarville" on Alberta Outdoorsman forum, here some quotes that give some insight into the mentality of those using this area to shoot;

• 1."Well it finally happened. The road to the unsanctioned range on Crown Land west of Millarville has been closed off. Sign says due to vandalism but who knows. I have a call into the ERSD about it but it wasn't returned today.
  
  So anyone wanting to drive past the bridge to shoot or hunt is SOL.
  
  This is the place that was a bone of contention with a rancher who invited the local TV station or newspaper reporters out there when a family was doing some target practice. He at the time made accusations that some of his cows had been shot.
  
  Not surprising as to the amount of garbage left around at the site. Thousands of shotgun shell empties just left as well as old targets, plywood, cans and I have even picked up an old TV and a 20lb propane bottle.
  
  Maybe it is closed just for the winter season, but will see. Wish more people were more considerate of using Crown Land as it was a great place to go and sight in up to 275yds."
  
  
  2."Really sucks. Great area for whitetail deer, filled a tag there last 2 seasons, had intentions to do the same this year but when I drove up last weekend, there was the sign. Not surprised really, the garbage was getting out of hand, I would typically pick up as much as I could carry with me on my way out. "
  
  
  3."I've spoken many times on this forum as to why that locations was horrible. You shoot directly into a trail, a cutline crosses it, etc.
  
  Not only was the mess an issue , so was ignorance of all shooters using this location.
  
  OHV users have been complaining about this and other locations to SRD as well. "
  
  
  4."As for calling the shooters that were using the ignorant, I encountered some very nice people, AO members to be exact. Your way out of line calling people ignorant."
  
  
  5."While I'm at it. The first time I was out there a F&W officer drove in. I was a little nervous, but in talking with the gentleman, I came out and asked him if he thought the place was OK to shoot. He said he had no problem with using the area for target practice. He did mention that It was a tad messy though."
  
  
  6."Have you walked the length of said "range". Ask yourself where the targets are set-up. What's straight behind your "backstop"??
  
  Trails. There are lots of people out there hiking and riding those trails. I'm a shooter myself and when I come out into a clearing and find myself looking down the barrel of a loaded rifle I'm absolutely furious."
  
  
  7."This will not be the only "shooting range" shut down in the FLUZ. Insider information claims that SRD is planning a pretty good clamp down on it due to garbage and near-miss complaints by people using the area. Nobody likes to pop out of the trees and have people pointing guns in your general direction."
  
  
  8."The cutline you talk about is so steep that a quad would have to be in bull low and hi revs to travel up it. Definetly would hear them. And maybe the quad rider may not hear shots, but anyone on foot, or horse back would, I know I wouldn't be heading toward shoots being fired repeatedly. "
  
  
  9."There are no designated "quad" trails off the south end of the FLUZ. Unless you are staging and going down to fisher west everything else is singletrack. There are marked and logged single track trails in the "shooting" area."
  
  
  10."OHV users often do not hear gun shots until you stop, and the sad thing is SHOOTERS don't stop when they hear OHV's users. Shooting in the direction of people, or possible to have people saying "oh, they'll move" is not the mentality a shooter needs when finding a location, yet seems to be the most common thought to crown land shooters (once again, keeping in mind I often shoot on crown land too).
  
  The single track trail in the bush behind the range and the quad trail leading directly in line with the range and the one going across are often used. Illegal or not, there are people on them. Ignorance of it being illegal is not an excuse to shoot where people might be.
  
  SRD has been hearing a lot of complaints from different user groups out there.
  
  The only thing lower on the pole than OHV users are gun users so changes are definitely coming.
  
  Please do your due diligence when finding SAFE locations to shoot. Ie, no probability of people downrange, for whatever reason."
  
  
  11."Just got off the phone with the fellow from ESRD who is responsible for that area.
  
  He had no idea that the road was closed, as any road closure have to go by him. He said the road is unlike other oil lease roads as it is an LOC road and oil companies do not have the authority to just up and close them.
  He thinks that maybe Pengrowth took it upon themselves to close the road, which they have no jurisdiction to do.
  He was definetly going to look into it.
  
  His worry is that now people will just park on the road and walk in to the nearest open spot and set up, which he said is more unsuitable than the area in question.
  
  As to hikers, atv's, using this area, they also have to use their head as well, just as a pedestrian has the obligation to look both ways before crossing the street.
  I don't know too many people who wouldn't stop shooting if they heard an ATV or snowmobile."