Rocky Mountain Dirt Riders

results will be tabled as a motion at the ADRA AGM this fall

Haha, I like your list of choices in the survey! In any case, this is a great discussion to have prior to the 2011 AGM. Page 1 of our Off-Road Rulebook provides simple defintions of XC, HS, and EX events that the club reps tweaked slightly at the 2010 AGM. More detailed definitions are probably warranted for the next revision this fall.

My personal opinion is that EX is a distinct displine, intended for a stadium format and to encourage specator viewing. EX is to XC as SX is to MX. There are a lot of MX racers that would never consider trying their luck at SX, especially in the amateur/recreational ranks like most of us. Those that want to do SX can do so by going to SX events. SX-like obstacles have never been tolerated by the organizers of any of the (AOT) MX events I have attended--they are always dozed out or bypassed.

I think it would be reasonable to treat EX in a similar fashion: Man-made obstacles at EX events, only. XC and HS courses would be expected to be made up of natural terrain (which can be equally nasty), roads, trails, and single track (all of which may be man-made, but are clearly not obstacles).

Dobi's 21" (wheel) height limit is an interesting idea, too. Would the idea be to allow man-made obstacles up to a certain size/profile? I can't think of a better place to brainstorm this topic than the RMDRA Forum!

Good one Dobi....
Can this thread be used to voice opinions... here goes.
While WFO makes good points in the er "other thread", what is missing is this.... As an amature racer I want to be a well rounded rider, and as a youngster enjoyed MX racing immensly... After getting back into riding I gravitated to the offroad racing scene in Alberta because it seemed to be a challenge with a much varied set of skills required, thinking over longer time and to me much more rewarding than an MX course. My issue with man made obstacles is that they require a certain rythem that very few of us have the oppertunity to practice and the risk side is often dramatic. The way our offroad races are set up, we have, at best one loop to "practice". This is in contrast to the other riding series WFO mentions....(barring the CEC's) Good MX guys get controlled practice times, GNCC the same (Nathan Woods was killed in practice over one of the jumps) etc etc. As an amature I dont go to an Alberta H/S to be made a spectacle of... this is not crying or whining, its a 45yr old body and mind that knows its limits... and NO ONE will tell me where or what I should ride my shinny new "investment" over.

In the particular case of Reviere's Revenge I really enjoyed the course and some of the obstacles, they did a great job considering the conditions prerace, Kudos to Steveo for doing them every time, after thinking about it I told a fine lady volunteer on the start line I would give them one shot, If I didnt make it I wasnt about to repetedly throw myself over a cliff... thats what I did, and couldnt care less about what they did with the results.

In short I have NO time for big jumps or other manmade obstacles in our type of racing due to the following... Inadequate, controlled practice time, and inadequate controls during the race ie flagmen etc.

We have, in Alberta, some of the greatest collection of singletrack in the world, lets use it in the races....

I couldn't agree more Howard. I think that manmade obstacles don't belong in a CC or HS.

My 2 cents: anything that discourages people from racing is a bad thing. We need to help grow and promote the sport, not weed out the 'weak newbies'. The same can be said for races being held in dangerous snowy and icey conditions where we just leave a mess behind after. The more mature series' in the US have people restore the courses after races with picks and shovels to remove the ruts created. Ofcourse, this can only be done with more volunteers. Or a Trailblazer!

I voted for make it hard, as I always enjoy the challenge and am willing to try anything that I face at a race in hopes of being the best rider I can be.

That said, an easy out (longer route) and hard route (faster) wouldn't hurt either. I wouldn't expect a beginner rider to have to hit the tire wall, but A riders should at least have the option to save time by utilizing their skills.

-Rick

I’m not a racer so my opinion has little value in this discussion. I will say this though. As someone who is considering entering an event this year, the idea of having to ride over loader tires or concrete barriers is a little off putting and would have me rethink entering.

In either a HS or XC event, I would expect some natural obstacles that would likely push my abilities to the limits, this is part of what is an HS or XC. If those challenging sections are so difficult though, that it could stop a majority of the racers of a given class, then it seems natural to have an easier go around. Without this, the race stops and people get hurt.

Man-made obstacles have a place in certain events and a HS or XC race isn’t it, in my opinion. Yes people (spectators) to want to see spills and close calls, so for those they go to an mx, ex race or a trials competition.

HS and XC don’t lend well to spectatorship so instead why not focus on the course and the nature of what it is supposed to be a “Hare Scramble” or “Cross Country” not Hare Slaughter or Cross Concrete.

Just the opinion of a non-racer.
Your mileage may vary.

Brass wrote: it is supposed to be a “Hare Scramble” or “Cross Country” not Hare Slaughter or Cross Concrete.

Brass wrote:I’m not a racer so my opinion has little value in this discussion. I will say this though. As someone who is considering entering an event this year, the idea of having to ride over loader tires or concrete barriers is a little off putting and would have me rethink entering.

In either a HS or XC event, I would expect some natural obstacles that would likely push my abilities to the limits, this is part of what is an HS or XC. If those challenging sections are so difficult though, that it could stop a majority of the racers of a given class, then it seems natural to have an easier go around. Without this, the race stops and people get hurt.

Man-made obstacles have a place in certain events and a HS or XC race isn’t it, in my opinion. Yes people (spectators) to want to see spills and close calls, so for those they go to an mx, ex race or a trials competition.

HS and XC don’t lend well to spectatorship so instead why not focus on the course and the nature of what it is supposed to be a “Hare Scramble” or “Cross Country” not Hare Slaughter or Cross Concrete.

Just the opinion of a non-racer.
Your mileage may vary.

X2
As a potential racer why would I enter and event where I may not be scored as a finisher because I could or would not attempt the manmade obstacles? I thought the challenge was to finish the off road event with the best possible placing? Otherwise I will just stick to freeriding.

Newb on a cool bike

Ricktc wrote:I voted for make it hard, as I always enjoy the challenge and am willing to try anything that I face at a race in hopes of being the best rider I can be.

That said, an easy out (longer route) and hard route (faster) wouldn't hurt either. I wouldn't expect a beginner rider to have to hit the tire wall, but A riders should at least have the option to save time by utilizing their skills.

-Rick

I was there, and I crashed hard off the tires too. I would say I'm with Rick on this one, But also 37 too. If you don't want to ride the tires, don't do it. If it keeps you from winning, well then be ckoked. If you didn't win anyways, whats the big deal?

On another note, at least there is a way around those tires. When you come to a big gnarly hill in a XC, you either go up it, or DNF. Personally I thought the race at Clints was great.

I totally agree with WFO's points. It is important that the Albertan's keep pushing the limit. Look at the hard core tough stuff that we are brought up with and look at where it's put us. There have been some world class racers that have come out of our race series and let me make it very clear, that it's NOT because we made things more manageble, but it's because we pushed the limits. So, I think it's great what Clint did and any of you that sucked it up and rode that chit just made your self a better rider, so kudos to you. Maybe we should make our races a little easier so that when we go represent our province at the nationals (CEC's) we will all look bewildered when BC put's giant rock's the size of your smart car in the middle of a log jamb!!??

However, I am somewhat thoughtful you know, the ultra big gnarly stuff could have a slow "wussy" line around it through a giant mud hole or something like that...that made you slow down and get covered in mud!!! Then we could call it the "Hole of shame" or something like that.

It's dirt bike racing, c'mon people!! What's that saying about people gossiping around the water cooler?

I've got another great idea guys. We should make our trails really wide and easy with no logs and rocks or sticks so that the motocross guys can kick our asses on our own turf!! Ha, forget that. Let's bait them in and then make them suffer.

Brent wrote: We should make our trails really wide and easy with no logs and rocks or sticks so that the motocross guys can kick our asses on our own turf!! Ha, forget that. Let's bait them in and then make them suffer.

Options are good. Throw all the circus-act stuff you want out there for the high-skills guys -- teeter-totters, skidder tires, concrete barriers, etc. If those guys can ride that stuff, let 'em, if they really want to. I don't want the very best to suffer for my inability. And those obstacles draw the most crowds at events.

Low-skills guys like me will avoid that stuff anyway. I give 37 full credit for trying those skidder tires at Riviere's (nice film, Howard).

Give me a go-round or something less threatening -- I really liked that log pile Brenan set up at our race last year. Just hard enough for low-skills guys like me to try and even get over, and gave the good riders something to think about after 50 hard km in the woods.

At the end of the day, our 2010 Dirty Moose XC was hard -- really hard for some. And it was just trail. There's plenty of arm-wrenching, will-killing trail out there -- killer hills, logs, roots, etc. If A racers want something more, give it to them -- just don't make it mandatory for low-skills guys like me who don't want to tackle them.

Zook wrote: If A racers want something more, give it to them -- just don't make it mandatory for low-skills guys like me who don't want to tackle them.

I think Brent is talking mostly about the Pros but if the races cater only to the Pro racers the attendance may suffer. Remember the 15-20 Pros (often is is closer to 12) that race don't pay for the race. Their entry fees are returned to them in Pro payback so they don't contribute financially to the race operations. So it is all the other amateur classes (about 100 participants) that pay for the race. If the race does not seem appropriate to the amateurs, attendance will suffer like we did a few years ago. I think the A categories can not be lumped in with the Pros as these classes are for fast guys that don't want the competitive nature of the Pro class and are old. There is nothing stopping a 45 year old racer from entering Pro if they want to "challenge" themselves like everyone keeps mentioning.

There was an Endurocross series in Alberta in recent years. Why did it stop? Not enough people attending is my guess.

My understanding of the race types in Alberta are the following:
Endurocross - big man made obstacles in a track format
Hare Scramble - multiple loop race (<25km long) on natural terrain
Cross Country - single or multiple race loop (>25km long) on natural terrain
Canadian Enduro - transport loop with 3 special test sections (Enduro, Xtreme, Grass/Moto sections)
Motocross - man made dirt obstacles in a track format

It is all about expectation. If I want to ride tires and telephone polls I will enter an Endurocross. If I want a natural terrain long loop, I'll do HS or XC. If I want jumps and whoops, Motocross. Off-Road races have had these obstacles, however they don't have the appropriate safety people flagging like they do at a Motocross and that causes a safety concern. If these man made obstacles are present flaggers should always be present to increase safety and ensure that down riders (hidden from view) don't get ridden over. It's common sense but often these flaggers are not provided at the event.

At a motocross, where they have a lot of experience with man made obstacles, they will not race unless an ambulance is waiting at the race. I am sure this is because the man-made obstacles and the closeness of the races often cause injuries that could be serious or even life threatening. I have experienced many delays at MX when someone is injured and the ambulance takes the rider out. At an MX they always wait for an ambulance to return prior to continuing the race schedule. If the obstacles are large like many man made obstacles are then why do we not demand that an ambulance be on standby. Do we have to wait for serious injuries before we will care? This is a preventable issue that we should look to our MX to be roll models for.

Now I've left out the up and coming classes like Junior and Intermediate. I think they are challenged but again if they want to learn to ride boulders and giant tires they should enter the Endurocross race or go to Corner Grass.

Corner Grass does it right. They advertise that the race will be a grass track and an endurocross track together even though they call it a Hare Scramble. That way participants can decide if they want to enter that type of race or not. The participants should clearly know if the race doesn't follow the common race standards I have outlined so that they could make an informed decision before investing in any race.

So if the decision is made to allow obstacles, I'll would expect proper safety precautions to mitigate the additional risk. It could be a child injured without them.

And one final comment. If you are not a racer, you have no business checking option #1

X2 DB