Man Made Obstacles in H/S and X/C racing

[thirtyseven]

X3 DB!

[MtnBlue]

If A racers want something more, give it to them -- just don't make it mandatory for low-skills guys like me who don't want to tackle them.

I think Brent is talking mostly about the Pros but if the races cater only to the Pro racers the attendance may suffer. Remember the 15-20 Pros (often is is closer to 12) that race don't pay for the race. Their entry fees are returned to them in Pro payback so they don't contribute financially to the race operations. So it is all the other amateur classes (about 100 participants) that pay for the race. If the race does not seem appropriate to the amateurs, attendance will suffer like we did a few years ago. I think the A categories can not be lumped in with the Pros as these classes are for fast guys that don't want the competitive nature of the Pro class and are old. There is nothing stopping a 45 year old racer from entering Pro if they want to "challenge" themselves like everyone keeps mentioning.

There was an Endurocross series in Alberta in recent years. Why did it stop? Not enough people attending is my guess.

My understanding of the race types in Alberta are the following:
Endurocross - big man made obstacles in a track format
Hare Scramble - multiple loop race (<25km long) on natural terrain
Cross Country - single or multiple race loop (>25km long) on natural terrain
Canadian Enduro - transport loop with 3 special test sections (Enduro, Xtreme, Grass/Moto sections)
Motocross - man made dirt obstacles in a track format

It is all about expectation. If I want to ride tires and telephone polls I will enter an Endurocross. If I want a natural terrain long loop, I'll do HS or XC. If I want jumps and whoops, Motocross. Off-Road races have had these obstacles, however they don't have the appropriate safety people flagging like they do at a Motocross and that causes a safety concern. If these man made obstacles are present flaggers should always be present to increase safety and ensure that down riders (hidden from view) don't get ridden over. It's common sense but often these flaggers are not provided at the event.

At a motocross, where they have a lot of experience with man made obstacles, they will not race unless an ambulance is waiting at the race. I am sure this is because the man-made obstacles and the closeness of the races often cause injuries that could be serious or even life threatening. I have experienced many delays at MX when someone is injured and the ambulance takes the rider out. At an MX they always wait for an ambulance to return prior to continuing the race schedule. If the obstacles are large like many man made obstacles are then why do we not demand that an ambulance be on standby. Do we have to wait for serious injuries before we will care? This is a preventable issue that we should look to our MX to be roll models for.

Now I've left out the up and coming classes like Junior and Intermediate. I think they are challenged but again if they want to learn to ride boulders and giant tires they should enter the Endurocross race or go to Corner Grass.

Corner Grass does it right. They advertise that the race will be a grass track and an endurocross track together even though they call it a Hare Scramble. That way participants can decide if they want to enter that type of race or not. The participants should clearly know if the race doesn't follow the common race standards I have outlined so that they could make an informed decision before investing in any race.

So if the decision is made to allow obstacles, I'll would expect proper safety precautions to mitigate the additional risk. It could be a child injured without them.

And one final comment. If you are not a racer, you have no business checking option #1

Excellent. I was wondering how many "non-racers" had checked option # 1

[thegoose]

Well this is an interesting topic,,,

I have been a “ lurker “ here since being chastised for penning a controversial topic regarding last years Fallen Timber HS fiasco. I simply choose now not to get involved , however this topic was one I felt compelled to write on

My beef was with the “ circle “ I was put on with regards to my ability level, as a “ sportsman rider “ I was asked to ride the same loop as Schrage and the other top riders. ( forgive the spelling if incorrect ). My skill set vs their’s as if it were.

I was called a pussy, whimp, told to suck it up,, not to mention my lack of volunteerism gave me little if any right to post a comment,,, rather harsh words for people that didn’t know me from a hole in the ground.

Obstacles that challenge my skill set make me a better rider but give me an “ out “ after an honest effort. Few if any put on a race like Jay and his crew at Corner Grass, he takes the time to set up the course for your skill level whether it is an all out assault on the tires and rock garden for the pro’s or by giving us “sportsman “ a taste of obstacles you would encounter in an endrocross at the beginner level. ie anarchy corner and the smaller tire sections and poles

Something that Fallen Timber failed to do so,, all or nothing for every skill set of rider, I bitched and I got blasted,,,,,,,,

Every time I ride at Jay’s I try a new obstacle and take a little pride in just the attempt ,,, managed the big tires and the parallel poles last year and this year who knows but I will try something new.

It doesn't make a difference what I ride Endrocross, H/S or XC just give me something I can ride, don’t put beginners or sportsman on the same loop as the pro’s it’s idiotic and simply put ,,,,dangerous,,,, regardless of the type of race being run.

I enjoy all facets of every style of race, as long as I am capable of what is put ahead of me. Challenge me ,,, yes,,,, make it stupid and dangerous for my skill set ,,,no

Back now to my non involved lurking status

The Goose

[Dobi]

Thanks for the input mr Goose. Have fun at Cornergrass this weekend. I hear that suburban obstacle calling your name.

[markvfr]

Gooses valid rant

Goose, good post. Its too bad you went into lurking as being blasted on this forum is part of the fun... and getting your fill of DBs autocorrect that rivals the iPhone version. I remember your post and I thought it had valid points. Some people on here are very very passionate about this sport and don't take criticism well, even though its constructive (I'm like that myself sometimes, and I'm not talking about any pros here). The main valid defensive that you encountered was the volunteer effort put in to make these awesome races possible. We need to be as nice and appreciative of all the people who give up their time to make it possible and unless people volunteer themselves, they have no idea how much work goes into putting on any of these races. Its amazing!
If we take the personal aspect out of this argument, and listened to some constructive criticism to improve our races, maybe our turnouts will be 150 or 200 instead of 100. Catering to a sportsman rider but providing an option loop or go arounds is of course the most preferred solution, but it also requires more man power and planning. So, if for example a few sportsman riders stepped up to the plate and came out with the organizers to plan out the loop, help with flagging, provide volunteers to score etc, maybe that might speed up or help out the solution. I'm all for challenging ourselves and I myself am a sucker for punishment, but each persons level of skill and pain tolerance varies.

I remember my first race, the Grizzly in 07. When I finished, I swore I'm never ever riding again (kinda like drinking after a bender) but like many people mentioned before with the same experience, I couldn't wait to do the next race after the emotional and physical wounds healed. The difference was, most of the terrain that we rode in that race, I've ridden before or similar, so it wasn't my lack of skill necessarily that made it such a struggle. You throw in adrenaline, arm pump, 20 other racers on the line with you, fast pace that you're not used to, over 3 hours of continuous riding leading to fatigue and you've got a whole different ballgame. However, if my riding skill was no where near the terrain that the race was in, I probably would have packed it in and never raced again or not until I improved my skill. Its just too demoralizing and frustrating. So, I see your point Goose. And lets not bring up the argument "if you want to race sportsman go to CMA races" because thats not the point. We want to enhance our series, so lets not alienate riders but encourage them to race our series and increase their skill while being challenged.

Just my meager $.02

Cheers,

[steve-o]

Just my meager $.02



Cheers,

No one asked you mark, keep it to yourself next time.

[markvfr]

Just my meager $.02



Cheers,

No one asked you mark, keep it to yourself next time.

Touche. Back to lurking.

[MtnBlue]

Well this is an interesting topic,,,

I have been a “ lurker “ here since being chastised for penning a controversial topic regarding last years Fallen Timber HS fiasco. I simply choose now not to get involved , however this topic was one I felt compelled to write on

My beef was with the “ circle “ I was put on with regards to my ability level, as a “ sportsman rider “ I was asked to ride the same loop as Schrage and the other top riders. ( forgive the spelling if incorrect ). My skill set vs their’s as if it were.

I was called a pussy, whimp, told to suck it up,, not to mention my lack of volunteerism gave me little if any right to post a comment,,, rather harsh words for people that didn’t know me from a hole in the ground.

Obstacles that challenge my skill set make me a better rider but give me an “ out “ after an honest effort. Few if any put on a race like Jay and his crew at Corner Grass, he takes the time to set up the course for your skill level whether it is an all out assault on the tires and rock garden for the pro’s or by giving us “sportsman “ a taste of obstacles you would encounter in an endrocross at the beginner level. ie anarchy corner and the smaller tire sections and poles

Something that Fallen Timber failed to do so,, all or nothing for every skill set of rider, I bitched and I got blasted,,,,,,,,

Every time I ride at Jay’s I try a new obstacle and take a little pride in just the attempt ,,, managed the big tires and the parallel poles last year and this year who knows but I will try something new.

It doesn't make a difference what I ride Endrocross, H/S or XC just give me something I can ride, don’t put beginners or sportsman on the same loop as the pro’s it’s idiotic and simply put ,,,,dangerous,,,, regardless of the type of race being run.

I enjoy all facets of every style of race, as long as I am capable of what is put ahead of me. Challenge me ,,, yes,,,, make it stupid and dangerous for my skill set ,,,no

Back now to my non involved lurking status

The Goose

Your post has nothing to do with the topic "Man made obstacles in H/S and X/C racing". You are comparing a totally manmade course to a rugged natural terrain course. Jay lives at the property, has numerous pieces of equipment at his disposal to build this course, the time to do it, and the help. Plus this course has been made and tweaked over the last 5 years,and it's on flat ground. Much different than a H/S or X/C where you get a TFA for that day to have a race. Fallen Timber was devastated by blow down 5 years ago, so you could imagine the work it took just to get a loop through. For example it took 13 of us over 2 days to cut and throw logs just to go 1 km. So realistically there just wasn't the time nor the man power to make separate courses in this case. We were lucky just to get the loop constructed. Sorry, this was a negative experience for you. That type of course isn't for everybody, just like endurocross/manmade obstacles isn't for me. I don't believe the course was "stupid" "idiotic" or "dangerous" , challenging yes. All off road racing could be considered dangerous. If anything, I guess you know what to expect next time, and you can chose whether or not you want to participate.

[thegoose]

Thanks for your post "Dobi "

I will be at Corner Grass this weekend,,,, ah yes the Suburban ah,,,,,, I think I am more of a Fiat X-19 type of rider

That being said I only saw one person fall there last year,, not bad considering how many times it was crossed,, which means to me,,, a well thought out obstacle for a skill set ask to ride it.

The Goose

[Dobi]

Thanks for your post "Dobi "

I will be at Corner Grass this weekend,,,, ah yes the Suburban ah,,,,,, I think I am more of a Fiat X-19 type of rider

That being said I only saw one person fall there last year,, not bad considering how many times it was crossed,, which means to me,,, a well thought out obstacle for a skill set ask to ride it.

The Goose

I went over it approx 10 times last year and am amazed that I never fell off it 9 of the times over it....

[Brent]

With all due respect (I think i need to write this as I am not a good forum poster guy);

It's too bad we don't hear more from the pros, I seem to be one of the very few that puts up posts and usually I wonder why I stick my neck out there and look like the odd ball. Forum posting is not my strong point and maybe I should just quit this...maybe this is why the other guys don't post as well. There are very many different rider levels, age groups and all that...so we all look at the sport differently. So the pro perspective comes across harsh or abrupt, but it is important to hear this perspective and understand it's results.

There are lots of people who take riding/racing in a more realistic fashion...you know, just racing here and there for fun. Just hooking up with buddies to ride a great coarse. I totally understand that...that's the majority and that's why the CMA has been excellent when it comes to having a more laid back atmosphere, focused on family and putting together an easier coarse that suits family riding/racing. If I wanted to take it easy and not push myself too hard (sometimes I like this atmosphere believe it or not) then a CMA race weekend is a blast! But, i am a very competitive type of person and the CMRC races require me to get my chit together or else I get my *** handed to me. This pushes me...it makes me a better rider and it makes the Albertan/Canadian riders rise to a higher level.

If my bike isn't prepped, if I haven't been riding, and if I haven't been training (drinking light beers), then at a CMRC race I'll get beat down in a hurry and who wants to go to a race just to get mid pack to last? So I HAVE to spend my nights and early mornings prepping my bike. I have to ride at least once or twice a week and I have to drink less and try to eat better food. If it wasn't for CMRC racing, I would be over weight, tired and washed up and probably just poking around the woods with just a couple of buddies maybe 10 times a year. So the way I see it, difficult and challenging racing brings out the best in me.

I am sure there are a few 12-17 year old guys out there that dream about being the next Shrage and that's there focus in life. They want to be challenged and pushed hard to make it to a higher level...to become the best. If there are giant tires at a race, now they have to go home and practice on small tires and get good at those tires so that they can try bigger tires so that one day they can ride those big ones in a top race. That kinda stuff brings out the best in the competitive/aggressive riders and is the future of our sport...if we want to have local Albertan's rise to the international level that is.

Usually races are about pushing yourself to a new level, challenging yourself to become better/faster. Otherwise, we would just hook up at the local riding spot and go for a fun ride. Why spend the money and time going to a race? So in my opinion and with respect to the others, I think it would make sense to go to a CMA race if I wanted the fun and easier, more laid back atmosphere...because there are lots of people that fit that category. I'm heading that way pretty quick too. I enjoy taking my kids out to a more laid back race that doesn't scare them too much, but maybe in a few years they will want to be challenged and pushed at the "big time" races...but we'll see, that's there decision. I'm sure in the next few years to come I'll be riding around the giant obstacles in the "Pit of Shame" and watching the new younger pros pass me on the tough stuff. But I will make sure to cheer them on and will NEVER ask for an easier coarse just because I have gotten older and slower, more laid back.

[giantjoe]

I'm not a racer, nor a good rider, but I do have an opinion...

In my opinion XC and HS are meant to be a natural terrain course while EC events would be man made.

Yeah, let's have real hard sections in HS and XC, but that's terrain chosen from mother nature's courses. EC courses are man made, best set up in stadiums or flatlands.

Yeah, challenge the junk out of riders, that's how we learn, but stick to the format.

[steve-o]

I think the real question is/was about man made stuff.

Challenging as heck, yah bring it on! I just think people want to choose what kinda race they are entering. Hence endurocross will have tires and cables and concrete and cars and trucks. XC and HS all natural terrain with sometimes small portions of motocross tracks in the mix for HS races (usually really tame stuff from my experience, which is just fine.

As for the challenge and hard factor - again, bring it on. We are all racing the same course so no one has a particular advantage.

No one needs to get over heated here, unless you drive a gasser!! just KIDDING Zeal, relax!

Brent I love your training program - LIGHT BEERS!! TOOOO Mucchhhhh.. (actually I think you're in luck, PBR's used to 6% and now I think they've dropped it a little, so you don't even have to change beers!)

[MtnBlue]

(actually I think you're in luck, PBR's used to 6% and now I think they've dropped it a little, so you don't even have to change beers!)

[Bark]

First, what's my perspective... I'm a 40B rider that joins sporadically thru the year. I pretty much finish last or near last and thats OK with me. I do the events to challenge myself and build my skill. If I'm always last, thats OK but I honestly don't think I'll always be bringing up the rear. I have my doubts about finishing in the top 3 but you never know. I'm a 'get there' rider who will accept challenges that don't intimidate me too much. I voted for nothing over my front wheel. I've dragged my bike over lots of stuff that big or a smidge smaller.

I have enjoyed every event I've joined, even the ones that have owned me. Cornergrass my was my 2nd foray into the off road events. The first event was the 2008 Grizzly, which kicked my butt. But, I was hooked. I think I've participated in less than 10 events in the last 3 seasons. I've enjoyed every one.

Cornergrass is the only event where I've had to do the enduro cross type of hazard. I do the B loop, so its not what I would term 'insane'. But, you do see all the more skilled guys enjoying the insane side of CG. Insane for me is not insane for others. I see allot of smiles at that event. I've only been once (2009?) and they may have added to it since then.

The RMDRA XC last year had some big logs at the end of the lap. I was beyond tired at that point. I stopped, looked at it up/down/left/right and decided it was beyond me at that instant of time. So, I rode around it. 'The Brennan' told me that I needed to do the log to get the t-shirt. So, I started to go back. Then, he let me thru, wisely. I think I could do those logs when I'm fresh or better shape, etc. But, I made the decision to go around. I like thirtyseven's way of tagging the thing with his tire then going around. Seems like a good way to do it. I was super proud of myself for riding that event. I didn't make it look pretty but I rode every inch of that track. I look forward to it this year.

I remember seeing teetortodders at some event with an 'out' where you could drag your bike under a bar. That seemed like a good thing. Dragging your bike under something happens in the bush, why not at an off road event? The more confident riders can take the challenge and it costs time for the less confident.

The nice thing about motorcycling is that every rider knows its hard for everybody else, too. We respect each others skill level and, in my opinion, the obstacles never define who wins/loses. Its generally about the skill level of the individuals. What's wrong with an obstacle helping to define the difference? A guy who tackles those tough challenges can still be overcome by a fearless guy who has tons of speed thru the bush. Yes, some people have the competitive edge but 'they're fast!' and probably don't mind a challenge or two.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Aaron