Second Gear Club , MESS UP of " Sportsman Division "

[Dobi]

Goose,

Please don’t take much offence at the comments on here. Most of this group is trying to tell you we have all had races that made us feel like we don’t belong. Spinalguy references the 2005 Rivieres Revenge, that was my first race and I remember getting back in my truck with tears in my eyes, a broken bike in the back and a pledge to never again associate myself with this bunch of sadistic freaks. I was back in their presence by the next race….

I did not race the CMA race last weekend but am very familiar with the trail in question as myself and numerous members of this club spent countless hours working to design and build the trail that is now officially on the map for the Ghost area. The Trail Management Objective of that trail when it was designed was not for beginner level riders. It is an intermediate and up trail. I could imagine your surprise to show up for a “sportsmans ride” and be faced with that.

I myself was surprised to find out that the sportsmans riders where asked to take on that course. I too agree that the whole “mandate” of that class is to provide enjoyment for that particular level of riders. The event organizers know the capability of that class of riders and have a responsibility to provide a race course that meets that skill level. You wouldn’t over challenge a kids class (with hockey moms on the sideline) to the point of body and bike failure, how should that be any different for an adult class.

I disagree with Mitch trying to hide behind the fact that the CMC put on the race, not the SGC. The SGC is the promoter of the series and has the responsibility to ensure that the races are organized and held to a certain standard. You can’t stand back, take credit and bask in the glory of an event like Cornergrass and not take the criticism that comes along with an event that was not considered a success by all participants.

I know in the past the RMDRA has put on CMRC sanctioned races that have broken and destroyed riders. I have friends that will only race the CMA series now as a result of the over challenge of an RMDRA race. I personally have taken the verbal abuse resulting from these races and can tell you it is not fun or comfortable. We have learned from this and believe it or not do our best to design a race course that meets the skill level of the riders that we are planning to race on it. The last 2 X/C;s that the RMDRA have put on have had Pro/Int only loops that broke down some of the best riders in those classes. I had Pro level riders telling me that the course was ridiculous and that they never wanted to come back to one of our races….

I encourage you to continue to support the SGC race series not only financially but with your volunteer time. It is the dedication and support of so few that make it possible for these types of events to occur. I race CMA, CMRC, WEC (and am planning to take on the PNWA series this fall), I have helped put on races and cannot tell you how much it is appreciated to have an extra set of hands or the extra $ to have the best equipment to make a race run smoothly. (somebody had to buy the pens at the sign in table)

I would also encourage you to come out to one of the weekly guided rides on Wed night. We break into groups based on skill level and modify the ride as it goes along based on the abilities of the all of the riders in each group. We have local pros all the way down to people that need help loading/unloading their bikes at these events. Seat time is the key to happiness and skill development.

I am sure you will ride that same piece of trail some time in the future and you are going to think, there is no way that is the same section that I struggled so badly on. It happens to all of us all the time....

[Dobi]

My first race...
Riviere's Revenge. 2005.
Some guys i met riding suggested i should race. i did. i traveled South to Pincher Creek. It had rained for maybe 48 hours prior to the race. At least that is what i heard
My riding acquaintance suggested i do Vet Jr and not Beginner as that would be wussying out (you know whats funny? i never saw one of those guys at that race ) Dobi (current RMDRA pres) was also there attending his first race but i think he went Beginner
.

Are you calling me a Wuss? we rode the same course? I am unfortunatley was not seasoned enough to be racing a vet class at that time. I still have another 6 years before hitting the 40 class

[MotorEd]

I disagree with Mitch trying to hide behind the fact that the CMC put on the race, not the SGC. The SGC is the promoter of the series and has the responsibility to ensure that the races are organized and held to a certain standard. You can’t stand back, take credit and bask in the glory of an event like Cornergrass and not take the criticism that comes along with an event that was not considered a success by all participants.

.

Well written sir!

[DirtyBikes]

As an organizer of various races in Ontario (the Ontario CEC being one) I can tell you that it is very, very hard to create a course that is not only fair but challenging for all racers.

Imagine the struggles I have when there is such a wide gap between the top Western rider and the Ontario C rider. How do I create a course that challenges Prochnau, Schrage, Wojo etc but does not destroy the C rider? I spend many nights thinking about this as I design the course. At the sametime I need to make sure I challenge the C rider.

It is not easy.

However, the organizer must take ownership of making sure the safety of all racers is taken into consideration. So it is ok to run all classes on the same loop but perhaps there should have been an easier but much longer route around some of the really tough stuff. This would allow the Sportsman or less experienced racer who wants to push themselves to try the hard stuff. The guys that want to make sure they go to work on Monday without a cast can take the option knowing they will not place well but will at least have a good, tough day.

Just a thought.

Matt

[KanadianIceMan]

Hey Guys

Just some info for you not really adding to the "conversation".

The Moose Mountain courses were FLAGGED by the CMC (Hewgill Family), who have been putting on moose mountain for the past 50+ years in partnership with the SGMC, even tho SGMC club has had a heavy presence at this race, we simply are not the individuals who design the route of this course.

It was CMC's call to run classes on whatever course, and they did a damn good job. Yes there are guidelines & info we state on where you will be run. However over the 50+ years cmc have had their fairshare of riders, weather & terrain to deal with, they definatley know where to run a course & who can ride what.

The Xtreme, flagged by the SGMC is also at hunter valley, however is off on a break this year.

Corner Grass was a SGMC club run race for year 1, we then recommended to the CGRT that they create their own club & organize/facilitate the race themselves & let us do our scorekeeping & do some signup assistance so they can focus on what they do best, designing races.
For the past 3 years they have done so & the CGRT is now a fairly recognized organization in the off-road extreme world.

SGMC club will always continue to promote CGRT & all other clubs that help to advance off-road racing in & around Alberta. We are continually growing, learning & transforming to create a great and diverse club, with our site & communities, we have now become Canada's news portal for the off-road world.

Addtionally SGMC made the call to put races on a saturday so that one could recover for the monday work day, and for the extreme riders out there do two races in a row.

I personally as a Novice Rider in RMDRA & Intermediate Rider in SGMC think the course was too easy and short. But i love gnarly trails where i go 3 KM in a day.

As once a beginner/novice riders I now realize that they just need that push to try little more difficult level, and keep stepping it up, because really, ripping down quad trails have never been fun, only after that grueling section that you hate.I would rather grunt & sweat my way threw a ride and wonder if i was going to get back than push my bike 20 seconds to the truck at the motocross track.

I applaud all organizers who partake in creating off-road courses & areas for the masses to enjoy, there are really only a hand full of organizers in Alberta and they do amazing things with very little to make sure that over 100+ riders have somewhere to race weekend after weekend.
Pointing fingers, stating the obvious, or pressing F5 on this thread doesn't get anything done to keep us riding on trails and doing what we love.

At any race, good or bad, thank your organizer & volunteers the for the hard work they put on under such extreme & tight times in our economy, so what you broke your bike and are out $500, Almost every organizer fronts their time, money & sometimes family & job to put on a race. It means the world to them & Us if you simply give us a thankyou, i had a great time, my kid loved it.

I wish we could play wife swap & let someone put on a race, but I simply am not that cruel. I will tell you this, after putting on cma mclean creek HS last year, i have never been so exhausted & run down in all my life. I would have LOVED to let someone organize & flag that course, however i said I would, I will again, all because of the grace and thanks I got after putting on my 1st ever & most successful race of the year. Also snagging the Award for Race Course of the year away from the CG champions was pretty nice as well.....

I would highly recommend NOT adding up how much you spend on racing & riding, because you are just going to hate yourself & every course you ride for what you break on it and if you had a crappy race or ride. If you really want to enjoy the sport, do it because you love it, not how much it costs you.

To me riding is not a hobby, sport, activity or past-time, it is my life.

[rock93]

Trying to make a course to easy can actually make it more dangerous because he speeds increase. There is more chance that the beginner riders
are going to make it to work on Monday morning if they are struggling in first gear then if they are tapped out on some easy trail.
Off road racing is all about pushing yourself. I have just as much respect for the beginner rider that refuses to quit a race even though they are so tired they're blowing bubbles as the top pros.

[Spinalguy]

My first race...
Riviere's Revenge. 2005.
Some guys i met riding suggested i should race. i did. i traveled South to Pincher Creek. It had rained for maybe 48 hours prior to the race. At least that is what i heard
My riding acquaintance suggested i do Vet Jr and not Beginner as that would be wussying out (you know whats funny? i never saw one of those guys at that race ) Dobi (current RMDRA pres) was also there attending his first race but i think he went Beginner
.

Are you calling me a Wuss? we rode the same course? I am unfortunatley was not seasoned enough to be racing a vet class at that time. I still have another 6 years before hitting the 40 class

No, my riding acquaintances might have though You could have raced Junior
Just razzin.
Goose, i think the point of people sharing stories of races is to let you know its ok that you were in over your head.
Guided rides, Guided rides...

And i thought that NO races were going to be run on the NEW FT loops????? At least for a couple years

[MotorEd]

I did not race the CMA race last weekend but am very familiar with the trail in question as myself and numerous members of this club spent countless hours working to design and build the trail that is now officially on the map for the Ghost area. The Trail Management Objective of that trail when it was designed was not for beginner level riders. It is an intermediate and up trail. I could imagine your surprise to show up for a “sportsmans ride” and be faced with that.

Hey, re-reading this...the race wasnt on the usual Moose course? Was this held on the new stuff that just got added to the map? like this year? Are you serious?

Can anyone clarify where the course was?

[Dobi]

Yes, the CMC race last weekend was held on a portion of the new fallen timber trail. Not all of it, but a good chunk of one of the loops.

[MotorEd]

Yes, the CMC race last weekend was held on a portion of the new fallen timber trail. Not all of it, but a good chunk of one of the loops.

Hmmm, not gonna say too much other that I dont think that was a good call.

[Spinalguy]

Yes, the CMC race last weekend was held on a portion of the new fallen timber trail. Not all of it, but a good chunk of one of the loops.

Wow
i really thought that RMDRA and SGC were fully aware that these loops were to be left alone...no racing.

[crazy2wheeler]

Yes, the CMC race last weekend was held on a portion of the new fallen timber trail. Not all of it, but a good chunk of one of the loops.

What is the condition of the trail now? Is there significant repair or reclamation work that needs to be done to bring the trail back to the condition it was in prior to the race event??

[dirtyboy]

Yes, the CMC race last weekend was held on a portion of the new fallen timber trail. Not all of it, but a good chunk of one of the loops.

What is the condition of the trail now? Is there significant repair or reclamation work that needs to be done to bring the trail back to the condition it was in prior to the race event??

I was really disappointed (to say the least) that this race was on some of the newly established trail that the whole community came together and worked so hard on. I thought there was an agreement that no races were to use that loop until they had a chance to harden a bit. I think 2 years was mentioned and I believe that the GSMG sub trail committee agreed to this. SGC has a representative on the GSMG sub trail committee. Since I am not a member of this group, this is hearsay at best but I can confirm that most of the 12km race course was on the newly established designated trails.

An assessment of the trail would establish if any reclamation work is needed. Regular assessments (level 1 inventory) are supposed to happen on a regular basis.

[Zook]

As an organizer of various races in Ontario (the Ontario CEC being one) I can tell you that it is very, very hard to create a course that is not only fair but challenging for all racers.
Imagine the struggles I have when there is such a wide gap between the top Western rider and the Ontario C rider. How do I create a course that challenges Prochnau, Schrage, Wojo etc but does not destroy the C rider? I spend many nights thinking about this as I design the course. At the sametime I need to make sure I challenge the C rider.

No doubt it's a tough chore to make everyone happy out there. I don't race, I prefer the guided rides. It's why I joined RMDRA two years ago. And it's why I'm very glad I joined.

However, I did try a Pacific Northwest Motorcycle Association event in Vernon several years back -- The Big Rooster Hare Scramble.

The Vernon Offroad MC Club had an interesting setup in Lavington. There was a separate "Sportsmen" loop. It was short (2-4K) with trees, one short downhill and one sandy uphill climb. Just right for kids and beginners. They ran it for an hour. The winners usually went 6-7 laps in that hour. For any of the racers posting here, not worthy.

But the intermediate/pro-class loop was even more interesting in that the course was set up in a kind of figure-8 configuration. The really good riders (pro/expert) launched into the woods on the top loop (I can't recall the length, probably 8-10K), while the less skilled guys just raced the bottom loop -- about 12K.

The pros/experts would complete the top loop -- only one lap of that loop, I think -- and then come down to the bottom loop to finish their race. Two hours total for everyone, I believe. The "lesser" riders avoided all the nastiness they had set out for the pros, while being given a challenge that offered way more than the Sportsmen loop.

I found this model to be very accommodating to many skill levels simply because the less-aggro guys didn't have to cover the same obstacles as the skilled guys. And the "intermediate" loop wasn't exactly a bowl of cherries, either. I did one loop and bonked (Did I mention I don't race?). I can only imagine what that top-half pro loop looked like. Glad I didn't have to see it.

This kind of model may be worth a look simply because it could keep guys like thegoose and his son interested, while enticing more like them into the fold. Personally, I feel there is plenty of room in our sport, and plenty of terrain in our inventory, to accommodate these kinds of racers.

It's a tough spot to be in when you're putting on a race, because most of the racers here are very skilled, accomplished riders. But I think there's a growing segment of recreational rider who wants to race in the woods without having to conquer as many "challenges" as set out by the course designers who, by the way, are all very skilled riders themselves.

[crazy2wheeler]

Yes, the CMC race last weekend was held on a portion of the new fallen timber trail. Not all of it, but a good chunk of one of the loops.

What is the condition of the trail now? Is there significant repair or reclamation work that needs to be done to bring the trail back to the condition it was in prior to the race event??

I was really disappointed (to say the least) that this race was on some of the newly established trail that the whole community came together and worked so hard on. I thought there was an agreement that no races were to use that loop until they had a chance to harden a bit. I think 2 years was mentioned and I believe that the GSMG sub trail committee agreed to this. SGC has a representative on the GSMG sub trail committee. Since I am not a member of this group, this is hearsay at best but I can confirm that most of the 12km race course was on the newly established designated trails.

An assessment of the trail would establish if any reclamation work is needed. Regular assessments (level 1 inventory) are supposed to happen on a regular basis.

Is an assessment planned in the next month (or so?). It seems important that one be done before the snow starts coming down.

I haven't previously done an assessment, but I have taken the course and so am (I believe) qualified - I'm willing to help out one day (other than August 14/15, 21/22, or September 3/4/5).

D.